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==Archives== | ==Archives== | ||
===[http://www.chu.cam.ac.uk/archives/ Churchill Archives Centre | ===[http://www.chu.cam.ac.uk/archives/ Churchill Archives Centre]=== | ||
Churchill Archives Centre, located at Churchill College, Cambridge, has a large collection of personal papers relating to persons featured on this website. A full list can be viewed [ | Churchill Archives Centre, located at Churchill College, Cambridge, has a large collection of personal papers relating to persons featured on this website. A full list can be viewed [https://archives.chu.cam.ac.uk/collections/guide-holdings/ here.] The college also holds the papers of [[Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill|Sir Winston S. Churchill]], which have been [https://www.churchillarchive.com/ digitised.] | ||
Visits have to be booked in advance (link [https://calendars.libraries.cam.ac.uk/calendar/Churchill-Archives-RR-Calendar?cid=8436&t=m&d=0000-00-00&cal=8436&inc=0 here]), and new readers have to [https://forms.office.com/Pages/ResponsePage.aspx?id=HeJzuz14RkaXoeLCiZxAr5XElc1TN_5HnTImBJd1-fhURFpSRVc2N0k1UlpDVUxUMUE5UTY2STIzRCQlQCN0PWcu register]. Material can be retrieved throughout the day. | |||
;Contact Details | ;Contact Details | ||
Churchill Archives Centre,<br>Churchill College,<br>Cambridge CB3 0DS,<br>United Kingdom. | Churchill Archives Centre,<br>Churchill College,<br>Cambridge, CB3 0DS,<br>United Kingdom. | ||
Telephone: +44 1223 336087<br> | Telephone: +44 1223 336087<br> | ||
Fax: +44 1223 336135<br> | Fax: +44 1223 336135<br> | ||
Email: archives@chu.cam.ac.uk | Email: archives@chu.cam.ac.uk | ||
Website: | Website: https://archives.chu.cam.ac.uk/ | ||
===[http://www.kcl.ac.uk/library/archivespec/collections/LHCMA.aspx The Liddell Hart Centre for Military Archives | ===[http://www.kcl.ac.uk/library/archivespec/collections/LHCMA.aspx The Liddell Hart Centre for Military Archives]=== | ||
Located at King's College, London, the Liddell Hart Centre is home to the personal papers of a number of British naval officers of the Dreadnought Era, along with those of other members of the Armed Forces. The full list can be found [http://www.kcl.ac.uk/lhcma/info/index.shtml here]. It is recommended that one makes an appointment before visiting. | Located at King's College, London, the Liddell Hart Centre is home to the personal papers of a number of British naval officers of the Dreadnought Era, along with those of other members of the Armed Forces. The full list can be found [http://www.kcl.ac.uk/lhcma/info/index.shtml here]. It is recommended that one makes an appointment before visiting. | ||
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Website: http://www.kcl.ac.uk/iss/archivespec/ | Website: http://www.kcl.ac.uk/iss/archivespec/ | ||
===[ | ===[https://library.leeds.ac.uk/special-collections/collection/723 Liddle Collection]=== | ||
The Liddle Collection, an archive of various first-hand accounts of both World Wars, is located in the Special Collections of the | The Liddle Collection, an archive of various first-hand accounts of both World Wars assembled by Peter Liddle, is located in the Special Collections of the Brotherton Library at the University of Leeds. It contains many accounts by officers and men of the Royal Navy during the First World War. The collection is searchable [https://explore.library.leeds.ac.uk/special-collections-explore/Liddle%20Collection here]. | ||
Visits have to be booked at least three days in advance. | |||
;Contact Details | ;Contact Details | ||
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Special Collections,<br>Leeds University Library,<br>Woodhouse Lane,<br>Leeds,<br>West Yorkshire,<br>LS2 9JT,<br>United Kingdom. | Special Collections,<br>Leeds University Library,<br>Woodhouse Lane,<br>Leeds,<br>West Yorkshire,<br>LS2 9JT,<br>United Kingdom. | ||
Telephone: 0113 34 35518 or 0113 | Telephone: 0113 34 35518 or 0113 343 5518.<br> | ||
Email: specialcollections@library.leeds.ac.uk<br> | Email: specialcollections@library.leeds.ac.uk<br> | ||
Website: http://library.leeds.ac.uk/liddle-collection<br> | Website: http://library.leeds.ac.uk/liddle-collection<br> | ||
===[ | ===[https://www.rmg.co.uk/national-maritime-museum National Maritime Museum (UK)]=== | ||
The National Maritime Museum is probably the United Kingdom's pre-eminent museum of the sea. | The National Maritime Museum is probably the United Kingdom's pre-eminent museum of the sea. It is located in the former buildings of the Royal Hospital School at Greenwich in London, and lies across the road from the former [[Royal Naval College, Greenwich]]. The museum's Caird Library is home to a large collection of books and personal papers. There is also an out-station at the Brass Foundry, Woolwich, which stores [https://prints.rmg.co.uk/collections/ship-plans ships' plans] and [[Ship's Cover|ships' covers]]. | ||
The Caird Library's website can be found [http://www. | The Caird Library's website can be found [http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/library here]. The new library catalogue can be searched [https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/library here]. The old library catalogue can be searched [http://librarycatalogue.rmg.co.uk/ here]. The archive catalogue can be searched [https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/archive here]. A substantial list of holdings is also available [[:Category:Papers in the Possession of the National Maritime Museum|here]] on ''The Dreadnought Project''. | ||
;Contact Details. | ;Contact Details. | ||
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Website: http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/library/ | Website: http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/library/ | ||
===[http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/default.htm The National Archives]=== | ===[http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/default.htm The National Archives (UK)]=== | ||
Formerly known as the Public Record Office (P.R.O.), The National Archives (T.N.A.) at Kew in west London is the main repository of British naval documents, located in the ADM series. The online catalogue is accessible [http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI here]. The library catalogue is available [http://tna.koha-ptfs.co.uk/ here]. A "Reader's Ticket" is required to order and view original material, and is obtainable on-site at Kew: Details [http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/visit/readers-ticket.htm here]. The National Archives is a five-ten minute walk from Kew Gardens railway station and is served by London Underground (District Line) and London Overground services. Service records for a great many officers and seamen of the Royal Navy have been digitised and are available for a fee to download remotely or for free at Kew. | Formerly known as the Public Record Office (P.R.O.), The National Archives (T.N.A.) at Kew in west London is the main repository of official British naval documents, located in the ADM series. The online catalogue is accessible [http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI here]. The library catalogue is available [http://tna.koha-ptfs.co.uk/ here]. A "Reader's Ticket" is required to order and view original material, and is obtainable on-site at Kew: Details [http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/visit/readers-ticket.htm here]. The National Archives is a five-ten minute walk from Kew Gardens railway station and is served by London Underground (District Line) and London Overground services. Service records for a great many officers and seamen of the Royal Navy have been digitised and are available for a fee to download remotely or for free at Kew. | ||
;Contact Details. | ;Contact Details. | ||
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Telephone: +44 (0)20 8392 9198.<br>Website: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/default.htm | Telephone: +44 (0)20 8392 9198.<br>Website: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/default.htm | ||
===National Museum of the Royal Navy=== | |||
The National Museum of the Royal Navy (N.M.R.N.) encompasses several museums across the United Kingdom, including the warships ''Victory'', ''Warrior'' and ''Caroline''. It has a library which holds a number of personal papers, many of which are listed [http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/a/A13532604 here]. After a hiatus of many years the institution has an [http://collections.nmrn.org/search/simple online catalogue] of its own once more. However, at the time of writing (1 February, 2019) it is not working, nor is the library taking any requests for research appointments. | |||
===Primary Documents=== | ===Primary Documents=== | ||
We maintain a comprehensive [[The Dreadnought Project:Primary Documents|list of documents]] found within the various libraries and archives detailing those we have in-hand in some form, and which we have not. This serves as a good bibliographic accounting as well as a wish-list to help us plan visits to those repositories. | We maintain a comprehensive [[The Dreadnought Project:Primary Documents|list of documents]] found within the various libraries and archives detailing those we have in-hand in some form, and which we have not. This serves as a good bibliographic accounting as well as a wish-list to help us plan visits to those repositories. Tony Lovell had [http://dreadnoughtproject.org/docs/ an old section to this site] that catalogued some he has found useful. | ||
==Print Publications== | ==Print Publications== | ||
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==Websites== | ==Websites== | ||
''Please Note: The Editors and the Owner of '''The Dreadnought Project''' are not responsible for the content of the following sites. They are included here as a further source of information.'' | |||
===[http://www.naval-history.net/ Naval-History.net]=== | |||
An amazing website by the late Gordon Smith. Of particular value are crowd-sourced transcription of original Royal Navy and U.S. Navy ship logs. | |||
===[https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/ Discovering ANZACs]=== | |||
A government website which includes Service Records of men serving in the [[Royal Australian Navy]] and [[Royal New Zealand Navy]]. The search field will pull up men by name. | |||
===[http://www.gwpda.org/naval/n0000000.htm GWPDA: The War at Sea]=== | ===[http://www.gwpda.org/naval/n0000000.htm GWPDA: The War at Sea]=== | ||
A rich, but moribund website hosting various documents and articles related to the war at sea in the First World War. | |||
===[http://www.hazegray.org/danfs Haze Gray: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships]=== | ===[http://www.hazegray.org/danfs Haze Gray: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships]=== | ||
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===[http://www.kinghallconnections.com/ The King-Hall Family and its Connections]=== | ===[http://www.kinghallconnections.com/ The King-Hall Family and its Connections]=== | ||
Website devoted to the King-Hall family and its connection to the Royal Navy. Of chief interest are the meticulously transcribed diaries of {{AdmRN}} [[George Fowler King-Hall|Sir George F. King-Hall]]. | Website devoted to the King-Hall family and its connection to the Royal Navy. Of chief interest are the meticulously transcribed diaries of {{AdmRN}} [[George Fowler King-Hall|Sir George F. King-Hall]] (the originals of which are held at the N.M.R.N.). | ||
===[http://www.godfreydykes.info/NAVY%20THINGS.htm Navy Things]=== | ===[http://www.godfreydykes.info/NAVY%20THINGS.htm Navy Things]=== | ||
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===[http://www.navweaps.com/ NavWeaps]=== | ===[http://www.navweaps.com/ NavWeaps]=== | ||
A website devoted to "Naval Weapons, Naval Technology and Naval Reunions". Features much detail on hundreds of naval weapons. The data should really be footnoted, but I doubt that the editor can afford to do that with a decade's worth of work. | A website devoted to "Naval Weapons, Naval Technology and Naval Reunions". Features much detail on hundreds of naval weapons. The data should really be footnoted, but I doubt that the editor can afford to do that with a decade's worth of work. | ||
===[http://www.hnsa.org Historical Naval Ships Association (HNSA.org)]=== | |||
An odd site well executed. Of particular value is their [http://www.hnsa.org/resources/manuals-documents online collection of primiary documents] | |||
===[http://www.oxforddnb.com/ Oxford Dictionary of National Biography]=== | ===[http://www.oxforddnb.com/ Oxford Dictionary of National Biography]=== | ||
The ''O.D.N.B.'' has a large number of potted biographies of British naval officers and politicians in its database. Many of these are hopelessly biased and based on incomplete research. The archive of original ''Dictionary of National Biography'' articles, which are far more neutral, is of much greater historical value. | The ''O.D.N.B.'' has a large number of potted biographies of British naval officers and politicians in its database. Many of these are hopelessly biased and based on incomplete research. The archive of original ''Dictionary of National Biography'' articles, which are far more neutral, is of much greater historical value. | ||
===[ | ===[https://sites.rootsweb.com/~pbtyc/Nbd/exec/Index.html Paul Benyon's Naval History Website]=== | ||
This may not be the original site I had linked, which has gone missing. | |||
===[http://www.personanavalpress.co.uk/index.htm Persona Naval Press]=== | ===[http://www.personanavalpress.co.uk/index.htm Persona Naval Press]=== | ||
The | The webmaster, Dr. Mary Jones, wrote her doctoral thesis on officer education in the [[Royal Navy]], and has published the edited diaries and letters of Admiral [[John Locke Marx|John L. Marx]]. Of particular interest is her [http://www.personanavalpress.co.uk/nomination_database.htm nominations database]. | ||
===[http://www.naval-reference.net/uniforms/rn_ww1/rn_ww1.html Royal Navy Rank Insignia of the Great War]=== | ===[http://www.naval-reference.net/uniforms/rn_ww1/rn_ww1.html Royal Navy Rank Insignia of the Great War]=== | ||
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===[http://www.glennsmuseum.com/bombsights/bombsights.html Glenn's Computer Museum]=== | ===[http://www.glennsmuseum.com/bombsights/bombsights.html Glenn's Computer Museum]=== | ||
As astonishing personal collection of early computers, featuring many WW2 era bombsights and fire control components. A kindred site for our own [[Fire Control]] pages. | As astonishing personal collection of early computers, featuring many WW2 era bombsights and fire control components. A kindred site for our own [[Fire Control]] pages. | ||
===[https://www.exeter.ac.uk/research/centres/maritime/ Rasor Bibliography]=== | |||
A bibliography of British naval and maritime history compiled by Dr. Eugene L. Rasor provided by the University of Exeter's Centre for Maritime and Historical Studies. | |||
==Internet Forums== | ==Internet Forums== | ||
Many of these appear to be shut down now in trepidation of the new EU data protection laws. Thanks, EU! (sarcasm) | |||
===[http://dreadnoughtproject.org/bbs Dreadnought Project BBS]=== | ===[http://dreadnoughtproject.org/bbs Dreadnought Project BBS]=== | ||
Our own site's BBS. | Our own site's BBS. Very low volume, but worthy. Please register and check in. | ||
===[ | ===[https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards/ Warships1 and NavWeaps Discussion Board]=== | ||
Broad discussion of battleships, their history, and their armament. Users often descend into heated debate. A companion to the NavWeaps website. | Broad discussion of battleships, their history, and their armament. Users often descend into heated debate. A companion to the NavWeaps website. | ||
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==Ship Plans== | ==Ship Plans== | ||
===Dreadnought Project=== | ===Dreadnought Project=== | ||
We have about [[Category:Ship Plans|150 original plans]] of German warships 1870-1945 digitised at 100 DPI. | We have about [[:Category:Ship Plans|150 original plans]] of German warships 1870-1945 digitised at 100 DPI. | ||
===The UK's National Maritime Museum=== | ===The UK's National Maritime Museum=== | ||
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===Service Historique de la Defense=== | ===Service Historique de la Defense=== | ||
Many French warship plans | Many French warship plans were digitised and placed online at [https://www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr/ their website], but they were hacked and lost. | ||
I happened to download a good many of them, and have mirrored them [http://dreadnoughtproject.org/French%20Warship%20Plans/ here]. | |||
===Bundesarchiv=== | ===Bundesarchiv=== | ||
The German archives in Freiburg (often known by their acronym, "BAMA") have most of the German plan holdings. [http://www.bundesarchiv.de/ Their website] is available in German only, however. | The German archives in Freiburg (often known by their acronym, "BAMA") have most of the German plan holdings. [http://www.bundesarchiv.de/ Their website] is available in German only, however. | ||
I am informed they may have moved to Potsdam, becoming part of the [http://www.zmsbw.de/ Zentrum fuer Militaergeschichte und Sozialwissenschaften der Bundeswehr]. | |||
===National Archives and Records Administration=== | ===National Archives and Records Administration=== |
Latest revision as of 13:00, 8 November 2024
The Dreadnought Project relies to a great extent on primary sources, scattered across repositories across the world. We also rely on material printed in specialist secondary sources.
Archives
Churchill Archives Centre
Churchill Archives Centre, located at Churchill College, Cambridge, has a large collection of personal papers relating to persons featured on this website. A full list can be viewed here. The college also holds the papers of Sir Winston S. Churchill, which have been digitised.
Visits have to be booked in advance (link here), and new readers have to register. Material can be retrieved throughout the day.
- Contact Details
Churchill Archives Centre,
Churchill College,
Cambridge, CB3 0DS,
United Kingdom.
Telephone: +44 1223 336087
Fax: +44 1223 336135
Email: archives@chu.cam.ac.uk
Website: https://archives.chu.cam.ac.uk/
The Liddell Hart Centre for Military Archives
Located at King's College, London, the Liddell Hart Centre is home to the personal papers of a number of British naval officers of the Dreadnought Era, along with those of other members of the Armed Forces. The full list can be found here. It is recommended that one makes an appointment before visiting.
- Contact Details
Michael Howard Archives Reading Room,
Room 302, Strand Building,
Strand,
London, WC2R 2LS,
United Kingdom.
Telephone: 020 7848 2015.
Fax: 020 7848 2760.
Email: archives@kcl.ac.uk
Website: http://www.kcl.ac.uk/iss/archivespec/
Liddle Collection
The Liddle Collection, an archive of various first-hand accounts of both World Wars assembled by Peter Liddle, is located in the Special Collections of the Brotherton Library at the University of Leeds. It contains many accounts by officers and men of the Royal Navy during the First World War. The collection is searchable here.
Visits have to be booked at least three days in advance.
- Contact Details
Special Collections,
Leeds University Library,
Woodhouse Lane,
Leeds,
West Yorkshire,
LS2 9JT,
United Kingdom.
Telephone: 0113 34 35518 or 0113 343 5518.
Email: specialcollections@library.leeds.ac.uk
Website: http://library.leeds.ac.uk/liddle-collection
National Maritime Museum (UK)
The National Maritime Museum is probably the United Kingdom's pre-eminent museum of the sea. It is located in the former buildings of the Royal Hospital School at Greenwich in London, and lies across the road from the former Royal Naval College, Greenwich. The museum's Caird Library is home to a large collection of books and personal papers. There is also an out-station at the Brass Foundry, Woolwich, which stores ships' plans and ships' covers.
The Caird Library's website can be found here. The new library catalogue can be searched here. The old library catalogue can be searched here. The archive catalogue can be searched here. A substantial list of holdings is also available here on The Dreadnought Project.
- Contact Details.
The Caird Library,
National Maritime Museum,
Greenwich,
London SE10 9NF,
United Kingdom.
Telephone: +44 (0)20 8312 6516.
Email: library@rmg.co.uk and manuscripts@rmg.co.uk
Website: http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/library/
The National Archives (UK)
Formerly known as the Public Record Office (P.R.O.), The National Archives (T.N.A.) at Kew in west London is the main repository of official British naval documents, located in the ADM series. The online catalogue is accessible here. The library catalogue is available here. A "Reader's Ticket" is required to order and view original material, and is obtainable on-site at Kew: Details here. The National Archives is a five-ten minute walk from Kew Gardens railway station and is served by London Underground (District Line) and London Overground services. Service records for a great many officers and seamen of the Royal Navy have been digitised and are available for a fee to download remotely or for free at Kew.
- Contact Details.
The National Archives,
Kew,
Richmond,
Surrey,
TW9 4DU,
United Kingdom.
Telephone: +44 (0)20 8392 9198.
Website: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/default.htm
The National Museum of the Royal Navy (N.M.R.N.) encompasses several museums across the United Kingdom, including the warships Victory, Warrior and Caroline. It has a library which holds a number of personal papers, many of which are listed here. After a hiatus of many years the institution has an online catalogue of its own once more. However, at the time of writing (1 February, 2019) it is not working, nor is the library taking any requests for research appointments.
Primary Documents
We maintain a comprehensive list of documents found within the various libraries and archives detailing those we have in-hand in some form, and which we have not. This serves as a good bibliographic accounting as well as a wish-list to help us plan visits to those repositories. Tony Lovell had an old section to this site that catalogued some he has found useful.
Print Publications
The Mariner's Mirror
A quarterly publication published by the Society of Nautical Research since 1911, The Mariner's Mirror features articles, notes and book reviews covering all aspects of maritime history.
An illustrated periodical published fortnightly between 1895 and 1903, in 1906, and between 1914 and 1915. Some historical articles in the Dreadnought Project are illustrated with images from Navy and Army Illustrated.
Warship
An annual hardcover (formerly a quarterly) worth buying just about any year at all. While it covers all of naval history, it seems to have a focus on the extended period 1850-1950, which offers our own period substantial coverage.
Warship International
A quarterly publication of great merit. It focuses on ships more so than on battle accounts and certainly not on biographical matter.
Websites
Please Note: The Editors and the Owner of The Dreadnought Project are not responsible for the content of the following sites. They are included here as a further source of information.
An amazing website by the late Gordon Smith. Of particular value are crowd-sourced transcription of original Royal Navy and U.S. Navy ship logs.
Discovering ANZACs
A government website which includes Service Records of men serving in the Royal Australian Navy and Royal New Zealand Navy. The search field will pull up men by name.
GWPDA: The War at Sea
A rich, but moribund website hosting various documents and articles related to the war at sea in the First World War.
Haze Gray: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships
Early version of this comprehensive official history of individual United States Navy warships.
The King-Hall Family and its Connections
Website devoted to the King-Hall family and its connection to the Royal Navy. Of chief interest are the meticulously transcribed diaries of Admiral Sir George F. King-Hall (the originals of which are held at the N.M.R.N.).
Website written by a former Fleet Chief Petty Officer in the Royal Navy. Covers various aspects of the Royal Navy over the last three centuries.
A website devoted to "Naval Weapons, Naval Technology and Naval Reunions". Features much detail on hundreds of naval weapons. The data should really be footnoted, but I doubt that the editor can afford to do that with a decade's worth of work.
An odd site well executed. Of particular value is their online collection of primiary documents
Oxford Dictionary of National Biography
The O.D.N.B. has a large number of potted biographies of British naval officers and politicians in its database. Many of these are hopelessly biased and based on incomplete research. The archive of original Dictionary of National Biography articles, which are far more neutral, is of much greater historical value.
This may not be the original site I had linked, which has gone missing.
The webmaster, Dr. Mary Jones, wrote her doctoral thesis on officer education in the Royal Navy, and has published the edited diaries and letters of Admiral John L. Marx. Of particular interest is her nominations database.
A well-designed representation of Royal Naval rank insignia at the turn of the 20th Century. Currently offline.
Glenn's Computer Museum
As astonishing personal collection of early computers, featuring many WW2 era bombsights and fire control components. A kindred site for our own Fire Control pages.
Rasor Bibliography
A bibliography of British naval and maritime history compiled by Dr. Eugene L. Rasor provided by the University of Exeter's Centre for Maritime and Historical Studies.
Internet Forums
Many of these appear to be shut down now in trepidation of the new EU data protection laws. Thanks, EU! (sarcasm)
Dreadnought Project BBS
Our own site's BBS. Very low volume, but worthy. Please register and check in.
Broad discussion of battleships, their history, and their armament. Users often descend into heated debate. A companion to the NavWeaps website.
There are a number of knowledgeable users. A strength of this forum is biographical research and coverage of events and ships.
The Royal Navy section is the most active. Ship identification and minor nuances are a true strength.
Ship Plans
Dreadnought Project
We have about 150 original plans of German warships 1870-1945 digitised at 100 DPI.
The UK's National Maritime Museum
Most of the dockyard drawings for Britain's ships are held at the NMM. Copies may be obtained through their website or by inquiry via email.
Service Historique de la Defense
Many French warship plans were digitised and placed online at their website, but they were hacked and lost.
I happened to download a good many of them, and have mirrored them here.
Bundesarchiv
The German archives in Freiburg (often known by their acronym, "BAMA") have most of the German plan holdings. Their website is available in German only, however.
I am informed they may have moved to Potsdam, becoming part of the Zentrum fuer Militaergeschichte und Sozialwissenschaften der Bundeswehr.
National Archives and Records Administration
The American plans are held at the NARA archive in College Park, Maryland.
Christian Schmidt
This German firm has a small catalog of commercially-available drawings that I found to be very high quality and well suited to modelers' needs.
Display Items
I am a snob for great display items. Two merchants stand out.
Fine Art Models
The display models shown on their website are expensive, but their quality explains this nicely.
Maritime Prints
Located in the UK, and thus focussing on Royal Navy. Their website shows the quality of the originals and prints they have to offer.
Pages in category "Source"
The following 2 pages are in this category, out of 2 total.